groan

[mamajoan]

I sort of flamed this chick about the whole Buffy finale controversy, 'cause I just got so sick of hearing people say "what they did to Tara was homophobic, what they had Xander do at the end was homophobic, yadda yadda." Luckily the chick didn't really feel flamed and actually agreed with some of my points, so I felt a little better, but still, people, can we get the hell over it already? I didn't like what happened to Tara any more than anyone, but Joss is telling the story he's telling and mine not to judge.

Listen, killing Tara was not a homophobic act on Joss's part (and yes, it WAS Joss who made that decision, according to the interview he did on aicn). How do you figure? She was gay and she died, so it must have been about gayness? Okay, so when they killed off Forrest in Season 4 that must have been a racist act, right? And killing off Doyle on "Angel" was anti-Irish, yes? Gimme a break.

Name me a single romantic relationship in the Jossverse that turned out well. Go ahead, name one. I'll wait. *taps fingers*

No? Can't come up with one? Gee, imagine that. Whenever a couple achieves a modicum of happiness, something terrible always comes along to destroy it. Why should Willow/Tara be different? In fact, by following the same pattern with them, isn't Joss making a *more* powerful statement that lesbians are Just Like Us?

Now as for Xander saving the day by talking Willow out of it. Oh, I know. That must be homophobic and misogynistic because the Man saves the Woman. Right? Geez. How many times have Xander, Willow, and Buffy saved each other now? Are we keeping score? And was it about gender every single time? If Buffy saves Xander (and we all go "woohoo! yay for strong women protecting their menfolk!") ten times, is that enough to balance out Xander saving Willow one time? How about fifteen? Twenty? What's the exchange rate on chick saving vs. guy saving?

Oh, and then Xander has to say "I love you" to Willow. Well, that just PROVES that the whole point of the episode was "the love of a good man can cure/save the evil lesbian." Right? Come on. Give Joss a little more credit. He didn't spend six years establishing that Willow and Xander have a deep, strong bond of platonic friendship just to cheapen it all at the last moment by making it all about The Boy-Girl Thing. I mean, geez, people. Can't a man say "I love you" to a woman in a purely friendshippy, not-romantic-at-all way? It's the year 2002, for pete's sake.

So, that's my rant. All hail Joss. He's made some mistakes, that's for sure, but he is still da man in my eyes. Trust in Joss; he shall not lead you astray.

Comments

[xochiquetzl]

Just one comment:

"Joss is telling the story he's telling and mine not to judge."

So, this means I should accept the Season Six Stargate spoilers about giant flying slugs (I kid you not) as "It's their story and it's not mine to judge"? Nope, sorry. It sounds sucky. Judging from the second half of season five, I have no faith left. Criticism is inherent in creative endeavors, even if it's the passive criticism of switching off the television and finding something better to do with your time, like wash your hair.

Now, that's kind of different. I still have faith in Joss. I also think this last season was weak on both Buffy and Angel compared to previous seasons.

I believe Tara died because the theme of this season is "Be your own Big Bad," and Tara was well-adjusted so she had to die. That doesn't change my opinion that killing one lesbian and having her partner go insane is a cliche. But then, I didn't like the magic addiction arc, either. Nor did I like Buffy/Spike. I kind of liked the Xander/Anya stuff but I didn't think it was handled as well as it could be. I just didn't like this season, period. So perhaps my faith was already shaken.

I'm still tuning in. For the time being.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

No, no. I mean, obviously one always can (and should) judge the quality of the writing, and whether the plot twists make sense and qualify as good storytelling.

By "mine not to judge" I really meant, mine not to make assumptions about Joss's values and ethics (i.e. assume that he's a 'phobe) based on what he wrote.

The point is that I think killing Tara off, painful as it was, *is* good storytelling. For many various reasons.

[xochiquetzl]

No, I agree, that's different.

FWIW, in saying that I think Tara's death is a cliche, I never meant to imply Joss was homophobic. I don't know him, but my impression from interviews is quite the contrary.

This is kind of a weird distinction, so bear with me, please. I think "dead/mad lesbian" is a cliche, and a homophobic cliche. I don't think Joss wrote it because he's homophobic, nor do I think the storyline was homophobic. Nor do I mean to imply that bad things can never happen to the lesbian character. I guess I just mean that I'm sad because there are so few lesbians on television, and now there's one less, and her death followed the pattern homophobic storylines used to use to tell us that homosexuality is bad and will lead to madness and death. I actually think Joss was saying the opposite, that Tara and Willow's relationship was good and valuable, and that's why Tara's death drove Willow mad.

I guess my point is that there comes a point when the sheer weight of a cliche obscures authorial intent to many readers/viewers, even when the intent is to subvert the cliche.

IMHO and all that.

OTOH, I think posting about it has helped me come to a greater appreciation of the risk they took in the writing of the storyline, so thank you.

The Zeppo -> season 6 finale.

[munoz.livejournal.com]

Personally, I thought Tara's death was important and necessary and served the story very well. I thought it was unfortunate that they killed off a character I liked, but if I were writing it, I probably would have done the same thing. Why? Because it *sucks*. Because it's awful, and terrible, and it happens. Nice people die.

As for Xander saving the day, I always thought he would be the one to do it. Why? Well, consider "The Zeppo." Also, consider the fact that Xander has consistently been the moral and emotional center of the group. He had a problem with Angel, he had/has a problem with Spike, he was the one to whack Buffy upside the head about Riley (regardless of what we all thought of Riley). The tragedy for Xander was that, when it came to his own life, he couldn't get it together all the time. He could never be honest all the time, even if he tried.

His redemption comes by saving the world, by his honesty with Willow. For me the end of the episode was just as much about Xander - who felt guilt also at not having stopped Warren when he had the chance - as it was about Willow and Tara and Buffy and Dawn. Xander is Action-Zeppo, but Moral-Groucho. ;-)

Re: The Zeppo -> season 6 finale.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Because it's awful, and terrible, and it happens. Nice people die.

Exactly! *Totally* what you said.

Xander has consistently been the moral and emotional center of the group

Yes! And they explicitly acknowledged this by making him "The Heart" in the bonding spell they did in S4 "Primeval."

Xander is Action-Zeppo, but Moral-Groucho. ;-)

Hee hee! Moral-Groucho! I love it. Well put, everything you said. (Although I do think Xander still has some redeeming-himself work to do.)

Re: The Zeppo -> season 6 finale.

[munoz.livejournal.com]

The thing that keeps me riveted to the Jossverse is the whole redemption storyline concept. The idea that actions, consequences and reparations are all built in together - the idea that you don't just squeak by because it's TV and you can do awful things without anyone noticing. And you're right: Xander does have a way to go, at least with respect to the individuals involved. But as far as the "universe" is concerned, he's up a few points right now. In other words, we have seen that he has the *capacity* to fix his mistakes and do the right thing, and to do it grandly, so the smaller stuff is going to be okay.

I'd forgotten about Primeval - and you're right, that's exactly it. Xander has always been portrayed as the sensitive, morally-centered guy who may not be super-smart or super-buff(y). In fact, that's the symmetry of the original season: brains, brawn, heart. And since they want to get back to basics in Season 7, it makes perfect sense that they would separate Anya, kill of Tara and rehabilitate Spike: that way you have the original Scooby Gang in their original symmetry, plus the Angel-figure.

And I will hate Joss Whedon forever if he doesn't have Xander respond to Spike's return in a way consistent with Xander's position on the "team." The audience needs to *start* in a position like Xander's, where Spike's sin is unforgivable, and he must be dusted. I may be one of the few people actually looking forward to s7 - because I want to see how precisely *this* part of the arc plays out.

[lasayla.livejournal.com]

Name me a single romantic relationship in the Jossverse that turned out well. Go ahead, name one. I'll wait.

I can name two! Riley/Mary Sue Sam and James/Grace (Um... after the years of shootings and angst.)


Darth Cannot leave a rhetorical question well enough alone

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

No, I'm afraid James/Grace can't qualify, because they died unhappily, regardless of what happened next. (Still, I should have specified "romantic relationship between major characters," so that's partly my bad.)

As for Riley/Sam, they're the exception that proves the rule. They weren't able to be happy until they were *out* of the Jossverse. Their happiness, in large part, took place offscreen. So it sort of proves my point right there.

[lasayla.livejournal.com]

Well, what about...

No, wait she got dusted.

There's always...

No, he went all psycho.

Um, or...

No, she dumped him.

There's...

No, he got killed by the hell cult.

Or...

No, that's not canon.



Damn.

You win.

Unless you count Gordon. *Gestures at user-pic*