cat vs. toddler

[mamajoan]

I posted in altparent wondering if anyone had suggestions about how to help Isaac learn not to torment Bini-kitty. Already several people have suggested getting Bini declawed. *facepalm* Even aside from the fact that declawing is cruel and wrong, that idea goes against my basic philosophy of parenting. Not everything in life that Isaac encounters is going to be pre-sanitized and childproofed for his protection. Not every cat he meets is going to be declawed, nor is it going to be as friendly as his gramma's cats. I believe it's more important for him to learn how to behave around animals, and to develop a healthy degree of respect/fear for their claws and teeth, than for me to remove all possible sources of harm from his life. And yeah, I feel pretty strongly about that.

Having said that, though, I'm getting pretty frustrated/anxious over the whole Bini thing. He is really a lot more patient than I would have guessed, but Isaac has pushed him over the limit numerous times recently and gotten scratched for his troubles. He "pats" Bini very hard; he grabs handfuls of fur and pulls, he pulls Bini's tail, he tries to grab Bini's collar or whiskers or nose. He follows Bini around the apartment trying to grab him, or pulling his tail. He goes up to Bini while sleeping or lying down, and presses his face against Bini's body. He runs his toy cars over Bini's body. And of course he doesn't understand feline body language, so he doesn't stop even when Bini is giving him plenty of signals (including warning meows and even clawless swats). I keep thinking, "if he gets scratched enough he'll learn," but so far it hasn't happened, and recently some of the scratches have come awfully close to his eyes.

I'm not sure what else to do. I explain that he has to be gentle with kitty, and I demonstrate what gentle means. When Bini is obviously mad, I explain that kitty's in a bad mood and doesn't want to play right now. When Isaac pulls Bini's tail or fur, or hits him, I explain that it hurts kitty and it's not nice. I try to redirect him to a different activity whenever I see him bothering Bini -- but I don't watch Isaac every second, so sometimes I miss things.

Anyway, I guess there's nothing to do but keep doing what I'm doing, and keep my fingers crossed that Isaac doesn't get more seriously scratched. I mean, it seems like the only other options are a) watching them like a hawk every minute, which I can't do and stay sane, or b) getting rid of Bini, which I would feel horrendously guilty about and wouldn't solve the bigger problem anyway, as described in my first paragraph above.

argh, this stuff is hard, it's hard dealing with a little person who doesn't have empathy capabilities yet.

Comments

[deepforestowl.livejournal.com]

maybe Isaac needs to be punished when he treats the cat badly. I mean, it sounds like you just tell him not to do it and demonstrate how to act appropriately but without some negative reinforcement, maybe Isaac feels that proper cat treatment is suggested guidelines rather than rules that must be followed. Just a thought.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

yeah, the thing is, at this age I'm not sure punishment is meaningful -- I'm not sure to what extent he comprehends the concept of "you do this bad thing and it causes this other bad thing." The line between discipline (which literally means teaching) and punishment is fuzzy at this stage. But it's definitely becoming clear that I need to do more to remove him from the situations and keep him away from the cat immediately after it happens, and hope that'll sink in.

[ms-maree.livejournal.com]

I'm coming at this as not being a parent, so take it completely as you will :). But although Isaac doesn't know that he's hurting the cat, or why it's bad, I think most children learn the basic cause and effect consequence pretty quickly with a bit of pain. If the cat's retaliation isn't enough, perhaps a firm slap on the backside will give him the direct consequences enough for him to stay clear until he's old enough to realise the situation.

My nephew Cypress is starting to move about and he was absolutely fascinated by their pet cockatoo, now as a child I was bitten by my grandparents cockatoo on the nose, enough to draw blood when I started plucking it's feathers, I remember it clearly to this day, although I was three and never did that again.

My sister doesn't want her son to learn the hard way, and she doesn't want to move the bird because of the reasons you have stated, a child has to learn the consequences of their behaviour on animals. To avoid that situation he's been smacked a couple of times when he's being rough with the bird, so he doesn't do that anymore.

When he's older he'll realise why tormenting the parrot almost his size is not a good thing, but for now he knows well enough that tormenting the parrot is not a good thing because it will mean a bit of pain (safe pain). I know that might sound a bit cruel, but it's a possible solution. :)

..and don't mind me.

[ms-maree.livejournal.com]

And I just read your response below. Disregard what I said. Corporal punishment is an individual choice and I understand that it's not for everyone.

Re: ..and don't mind me.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Thanks for saying that. I appreciate it.

[xochiquetzl]

I know this is harder than it sounds, but I still think that "If you can't play nice with the kitty, you can't touch the kitty," is the only way to go. For some arbitrary period of time, like two days, the time period increasing on repeat offenses.

At least, it seemed to work for the people who had this problem in The House Rabbit Handbook, and rabbits don't have claws.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the thing is, I don't think Isaac has enough understanding of cause and effect to grasp "you were mean to kitty yesterday so you don't get to play with him today." But definitely a period of separation immediately following the rough play is something I'm going to work harder on.

[xochiquetzl]

Yeah, this is true. The kid in The House Rabbit Handbook was three (I just looked, I thought he was younger). But apparently being forbidden to play with her made an impression.

Good luck.

[flick.livejournal.com]

I really don't want to conflict with your parenting style, but...

If he hurts the cat, smack him.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

No.

[flick.livejournal.com]

[shrugs]

Which is worse: that or the cat clawing his eye?

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I'd rather have him lose an eye than learn to think of hitting as an acceptable way to resolve conflict. And I'd rather have him lose an eye than learn to fear his mother. Hitting one's child is a sign of weakness, the cowardly way out, the lowest common denominator. An admission of failure.

[emrinalexander.livejournal.com]

Do you you do timeouts? That might work if he's going to connect it with hurting the cat.

[anotherjen.livejournal.com]

I think he IS old enough for time-outs; they recommend one minute for every year the kid is old, so he has to sit in a particular spot for 1.5 minutes when he does something he shouldn't.

[flick.livejournal.com]

Okay...

Interesting view point, but those are your views so fair enough: not an argument I want to get into with you, he's your child, I was just offering an opinion.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

When I was five, I apparently damn near strangled our cat (I don't remember much of how I treated him--my mother says I was picking him up with my hands around his neck) and he clawed my eye.

Max was not a terribly social cat (and had been in the family about ten years longer than me; Mom says he was jealous when they brought me home from the hospital) but he put up with a lot from me. He really only clawed me because I was being rather inadvertantly lethal.

I had to go to the emergency room to get my eye treated. It was scary.

But I damn well learned to be nice to cats.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Thing is, five years is old enough to understand the concept of pain, and that cats feel pain, and that one's actions can cause cats pain and this is a bad thing. Maybe not old enough to consistently apply that knowledge, but 5 is old enough to get it. Twenty months, not so much.

[frightened.livejournal.com]

wondering if anyone had suggestions about how to help Isaac learn not to torment Bini-kitty. Already several people have suggested getting Bini declawed

Ugh, your reaction is spot-on. You ask how to teach your kid something and they tell you to maim your cat? Jesus.

I can't help you there, I'm afraid. I just got told in no uncertain terms that cruelty to animals was Wrong and, frankly, was likely to get me injured by said animal. Since you've been telling him the former and he's been experiencing the latter, I'm afraid I don't know. Best of luck with it.

[victoriacatlady.livejournal.com]

I posted in altparent wondering if anyone had suggestions about how to help Isaac learn not to torment Bini-kitty. Already several people have suggested getting Bini declawed. *facepalm*

Yes. That solution would be a somewhat effective (if evil) way of preventing *Bini* from tormenting *Isaac*. It completely misses the point of teaching Isaac not to hurt Bini.

My first reaction was to try to give Isaac as nearly as possible exactly the same pain as he gives Bini. The only really safe situation I can think of, though, would be to pull his hair when he pulls Bini's hair. And I do take your point about not teaching him to fear his mother. I suppose the solution that's going to have to happen is for Bini to teach him (with claws and teeth) not to hurt him. I do respect your statement that you'd rather have Isaac lose an eye than learn to think of hitting as a way to resolve conflict. But of course that's not something you want to have happen, either.

I guess I haven't given any good advice, have I? But at least I do see the dilemma. And I'm so glad you don't see maiming or abandoning the cat as an acceptable solution, either.

[sydb42.livejournal.com]

I don't have a lot of advice, if you find something that works, let me know. :) Roo has gotten to the stage where she'll deliberately do something mean, I guess to see what the cat will do. My cats are a lot more skittish and will run away (which is how I trained them actually, they know not to attack humans in any way and will only do so in dire circumstances like if you step on their tails, and even then more often than not they'll just scream and then run away).

I have "banned" her from playing with the cats, and she knows that if she does stuff that they don't like, they'll run away. Unfortunately, because of her past actions, even when she's *trying* to be nice to them, they will often run away from her anyway, though I do have one cat that will follow her around sometimes. :) Anyway, while I don't believe in smacking (my FIL smacked her in the face once, as an automatic reaction to her spitting, but he and MIL say it wasn't hard and they did report it to us, but I was NOT happy), but I have spanked.

I generally reserve spanking for what my husband calls the "step and die" traps...for instance, if she tries to run into the street despite us yelling at her to stop, she gets a swat on the rear and controlled yelling to tell her that what she did was dangerous. That, btw, has worked wonders and (knock on wood) she hasn't done that since around Spring last year (when we had a lot of trouble with her doing that). If we say "stop" when she's running off, she does.

I don't want to associate spanking with playing with the cats, even if she's doing it in a mean way, however, because that's not exactly step and die (esp. with our cats), and with strange cats, I can tell her to stop before she approaches them for me to find out if they're "toddler proof", so to speak. She has also gotten scratched by other people's cats (very minor), which surprised her, but hasn't really deterred her with cats, even the same ones that scratched her. That actually surprised me. Fortunately, she doesn't get to be around other cats very often.

Anyway, perhaps the whole "cruelty to animals" thing is something that kids have to grow out of. I've always been a sensitive person, even as a child, but even I used to cut worms in half and stomp on bees (WITH shoes) and catch bugs (including bees) in jars to shake them up and see what happens. Empathy, I think, is something that doesn't just happen (at least not with other species, my daughter can't stand it when I cry and does whatever she can to make me feel better if I do cry in front of her), but something that we either grow into or learn. How to teach that toward animals, I have no idea. Everything I've tried has yielded temporary results at best.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Thanks, your input is helpful. I definitely think Isaac is not there yet as far as understanding that the cat can feel pain and that him causing the cat pain is bad. I don't even think it's accurate to call his behavior "cruelty" right now, because that implies that he's deliberately trying to hurt the cat, and he's not; he's trying to play and he doesn't get it.

[azurelunatic]

Try note_to_cat? Softpaws?

How to teach a kid feline body language?

[retch.livejournal.com]

I'd say that cat tormenting probably needs to go on the list of things that get a spanking. After all, treating animals properly is part of being able to treat people properly.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

You say I should teach my child to treat people properly, and yet at the same time you're telling me to hit him? What's wrong with this picture?

[ms-maree.livejournal.com]

I was brought up in a school system that used corporal punishment. They don't this anymore, but I remember telling this to a European workmate and you'd think that I'd told her that they executed students.

I remember twice being punished, once because I didn't hand in my homework five time in a row and the other for getting into a fight with another child and yanking out a whole bunch of her hair.

The punishment I got, and what most kids got was a smack across the knuckles with a ruler the principle (who was the only one who met out this punishment) called Milo. We were all in mortal fear of Milo. The actual fear of pain was worst then the pain, and the shock of pain.

I also got smacked as a child, I also got abused, even as a child I knew the difference. My Mum giving me a strike on the bum with the wooden spoon because I put the cat in the freezer, or forced a hose down my little cousin's mouth (don't ask) was nothing like what my Father did went he was in a bad mood.

My cousins were also punished the same way, and not abused, I don't think any of us developed any type of negative traits from this, we're all rather well-adjusted adults with no propensity for violence (although I have issues with my father beating me when he was drunk).

Now my younger brother was never punished, or abused. One of my new Aunts then made her feel guilty for those actions with me, so she didn't with my brother. Now my brother, 19 has recently gotten into a fight at the pub, had his teeth knocked out of him, has been picked up by the police for theft, has lost his car licence. There is no good here, although I think he's moving on (fingers crossed). My Mother and Nana have often now wonder aloud to me if by sparing my brother from the occasional smacks on the bot he lost some valuable discipline at a early stage that now leads him to act in anti-social way now.

I don't know, I don't know enough about human behaviour or child development, but sometimes I wonder the same thing. I wasn't traumatised by the punishment that I got, and I don't feel the need to hurt other people, or be cruel to little children or animals because of it.

But I'm also old enough to realise that this is a grey area and what works for one child may not work for another, I can't even tell you if I'd do it if I had children. It doesn't bother me that my sister punishes her little one with a smack now and again because it's not abuse and I do think that sometimes it has it's place.

Having said all that, I completely respect the way you're raising your child and I certainly don't want to force any other options onto you. It's not an easy thing either way.

[retch.livejournal.com]

Nothing, there is a clear cut difference between punishment for bad behaviour and abusing a child. But obviously you have a way you want to raise your kid, and that's cool, I was just making a suggestion from my own point of view.

[obsessedmuch.livejournal.com]

I think that the suggestion of punishing him when he hurts Bini is a good one. It can be whatever form of punishment you feel is fitting -just enough for him to understand that he cannot hurt the cat without it having more than just that 2-second swipe of claw as the only reaction. Even if it's a short time out so he will make an immediate connection with his actions and Bini's reactions might help to make an impact on him.

Good luck, honey.

[obsessedmuch.livejournal.com]

Oh and just so we're clear - I wasn't suggesting paddling as punishment. Eep.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the clarification hon. I was distressed by the people telling me to declaw the cat, and I'm just as much so by the people telling me to smack my child!

[obsessedmuch.livejournal.com]

I won't declaw my cats either, and it means making adjustments. No new furniture, making sure the boys understand that they are reaping the rewards of being too loud/rough/whatever when they get nailed with the claws, etc. And yes, boys of 10 and up still need to be reminded that the cats will not take favorably to some things they do. Although in their favor, they understand entirely the "be gentle" thing, they just seem to have lost the concept of the cats not being done playing when the boys get bored first. Tackling ensures, mostly of the "cat on jeans" variety.

[retch.livejournal.com]

girgirl had a suggestion that might help too, get Bini a cat tower so he has somewhere to flee that is out of Isaac's reach.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Bini has plenty of places to hide, part of the problem is that he's too dumb, or ornery, or whatever to go to them. He does flee sometimes, but not always.

[morgan-dhu.livejournal.com]

It sort of sounds like, at this moment, you have two boys who want to play on the rough side.

I don't have much actual experience with small people Isaac's age, but my inclnation is to try immediate separation and a time-out period whenever he gets rough with Bini. Redirection of activities doesn't appear to be enough, so perhaps it'a time to try a frank "You're hurting/annoying the cat, so I'm going to prevent you from doing so by taking you away, and you can't play with the cat again until... [insert some resonalbe time period].

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you're right about the immediate separation and I see that I haven't been very good about that. I'm not sure how long Isaac's attention span is as far as "you're not allowed to play with the cat now because you hurt him X minutes/hours ago" but we'll start with a few minutes and see how it goes.

I wouldn't say that I have "two boys who want to play rough" -- honestly Bini doesn't want to play at all; he just wants to be left the hell alone. And Isaac definitely doesn't realize that his roughness is an issue. He isn't old enough yet to grasp that other people and animals feel pain and that his actions can cause them pain. But until he gets there, we need a way to keep him playing gentle.

anyway, thanks for your input.

[gosling.livejournal.com]

Here's my professional opinion FWIW. (He's younger than that kids I generally work with, but I have worked with toddlers a bunch in the past.)

The general guideline for toddler and preschool aged kids for time outs is usually one minute for each year of age (but this really depends on the child's maturity, especially as they get older). Isaac is very young, and, like most kids his age, probably not cognitively mature enough to put together cause and effect very well. That said, moving him away from the cat when he is rough, and clearly stating something about when he can't be gentle with the cat he needs not to be next to the cat might be helpful (really, almost more redirection than time-out per se.) Stating (and showing him) what he *can* do is likely to ultimately be the most helpful. ("We touch the cat gently," and showing him what you mean, which it sounds like you are already doing. As you probably know, in the end what tends to stick with kids is what is modeled for them.)

It takes time too. It doesn't sound like the cat is likely to seriously injure him, but it does sound like he may injure the cat, so it's probably important to be very diligent (but you know that...)

[retch.livejournal.com]

well, maybe it is ok then, if Bini isn't really getting hurt, then Isaac will either learn, or get injured, but that's his choice, and as the instigator he's responsible. You may not want him to get hurt, but it may just be what he gets himself into. I really do think eventually he'll learn to associate the cat clawing him with his actions and realize he needs to stop... I mean it's not like Bini is going after him unprovoked (in which case I'd say you'd want to consider getting rid of the cat.)

That's too bad that Bini doesn't just avoid him, but maybe this is just a short period where Isaac can't understand the warnings and it'll turn out ok?

[aelf.livejournal.com]

Our dog is having a serious case of sibling rivalry with the child. Zoe can be *very* rough with Max (a miniature schnauzer), and when she is -- and he growls, or whatever, we explain that he's told her to leave him alone, and she needs to leave him alone. If she persists, she loses her dog privileges for the moment. That means we separate her and Max, generally by moving her and making sure he has a clear space to get away to. We also completely fawn over the dog "ooh poor boy! Did she hurt your leg when she grabbed it? Poor boy" That sort of stuff. It works for, oh, 30 seconds. You know, the length of time anything works for this age group. :)

I'm afraid that someday Zoe's going to grab his fur just a bit too hard, and he's going to bite her. Sure, he's never bitten anyone, but he's also a *dog* and there have to be limits to what he can cope with. So we do everything we can to show her what she can and can not do. Not only that, but our neighbors on both sides have dogs, and Zoe's constantly reaching through the chain link fence to pet them. *freaking-out parent scream* What strange dog doesn't love having a toddler poke it in the nose and say "nose!" *sigh*

So, I guess, I'd keep doing what you're doing. Separate them when Isaac's being rough -- but don't do it in a way that's punative to Bini. Give Bini lots and lots of love and attention after Isaac's too rough, just like you'd do to a bitten child in front of the biter. Have a time-out spot for Isaac that's not near a favorite Bini-place. If Zoe goes after Max when we've separated them, and Max has *not* gone up to her to re-invite play, she gets set on the bottom step and has to sit there for a minute. Then right after time out I try and get her involved with a toy, or we go out for a walk, something to keep her from remembering "oh right, I was trying to pull the dog's ear off!"

Mostly, it's trying to be very aware when she and Max are near each other, since near-constant intervention seems to be required. (Though I must say I've seen improvement over the past several months.) (Oh, we tried giving Zoe a collar of her own to make her leave Max's alone, and that didn't work. So we've taken Max's off, and just put it on for walks. The collar was too tempting, and I felt too dangerous.)

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Thanks, your input is really helpful.

[gosling.livejournal.com]

I would agree with this. :-)