Fashion, feminism, and "support"

[mamajoan]

Recently lunaris1013 wrote in her LJ that a woman should not go out in public without a bra if she is over 30, is bigger than a B cup, and has had two or more children. I am sure she's right about this. Still, all three of those things describe me, and I commit that infraction regularly. Am I repentant? I am not. But I have been thinking about this a lot lately.

As you know, I'm unemployed at the moment. Most days, I only go out of the house to drop the kids off in the morning and pick them up in the evening. Sometimes I pop over to the grocery store, Target, or similar; but more often, dropoff and pickup are the only times I go "out in public." So I don't feel much motivation to do anything about my appearance for those brief outings. I throw on whatever shorts and shirt happen to be handy, slap a baseball cap on my head so I don't have to wonder what my hair looks like ;) , and off we go. And no, until recently (see below), I wasn't including bras in that.

Do I think I look good? Heck no. Do I care? ...not really. Do I think that other people, particularly women, are looking at me and passing judgment on my appearance? Quite possibly. And again, do I care? ...not really.

Here's the basic point: I'd rather be comfortable. That's what it boils down to. Am I making a feminist statement by going out in public with no bra? Not deliberately, but if it has that effect, that's fine with me. ;)

Mind you, when your breasts pass a particular size, the question of what comfortable means, boob-wise, gets a bit more complicated. Before I ever had kids, I was a B cup and went braless very often and it was no problem at all. Now I'm, well, several cups larger than that, and yes, there are times when letting it all hang out, so to speak, is not so comfortable. So, the comfort vs. conforming question gets more complicated.

It so happens that lunaris1013 posted her missive a day or two before I had planned a trip to the bra-fitting store. It was something I had wanted to do for ages, and I felt that the time had come. It was a good experience. The saleswoman was very helpful and didn't bat an eye when I said that I wasn't sure whether I wanted a nursing bra because my nursing child is already three years old (more on that later). I tried on at least a dozen bras and ended up buying three -- all the same model, in white, black, and "nude" color. I found it very worthwhile. The bras that I bought are extremely comfortable and supportive, and not too pricey (I'm accustomed to buying $12 bras at Target, but I'm not blind to the fact that $35 is not unreasonable for a better-quality bra). I'm glad that I bought them and I have been wearing them plenty.

So now I find myself putting on a bra in the mornings to run the kids to camp/daycare. And I'm asking myself: Am I doing this because I like how my new bras feel? Am I doing it because I've finally grudgingly admitted that I'm an adult, with biggish boobs, who ought to be wearing a bra both for appearance's sake and for my own personal physical comfort? Am I doing it because I suddenly care what others who see me think? Am I doing it because I was shamed into it by someone on the internet whom I barely know? Am I still a feminist if I wear a bra because it's what society expects me to do? Am I still a feminist if I wear a bra because it actually feels good to have the support? Does it really actually feel good or have I just been brainwashed/steamrolled by societal expectations? Am I still a feminist if I cave in to societal norms and the (imagined) judgment of my appearance by strangers?

Similarly, recently I found myself thinking about shaving my legs. I am not sure exactly when was the last time I did this, but I'm thinking it was during my pregnancy with Isaac. And you'll recall that Isaac is six years old now. ;) And unlike some women who can "get away with" not shaving their legs because they have very fine, light-colored leg hair, well, mine is dark and thick. Ruthie recently said "mama, your legs are so furry!"

Frankly, I like having furry legs. I like how it feels when the breeze swishes the hairs around, and I like how it feels when I run my hands over them. I like the look and feel of smooth legs too, but not enough to make it worth the hassle of shaving as often as I need to in order to keep them smooth. If it makes me less attractive to potential romantic partners, I don't give a flying fuck.

But I found myself thinking about shaving them, prompted by the process of trying to find something to wear to a job interview. I have some nice dresses/skirts that would be interview-appropriate, but they do expose at least the lower third of my legs, which means that I either shave the legs or risk telling people more about myself than they necessarily want to know at an interview; and then there's the question of whether I'll be more nervous/uncomfortable/self-conscious at the interview. (I go through a similar thought process regarding tattoos, btw, but I generally cover up the tats for interviews so that takes care of that.)

And so far, mostly, I've chosen to keep the legs furry and to wear pants, or longer skirts, to interviews. But again I'm facing the questions: Was I considering shaving my legs because I really wanted to, or because it would be easier? Was it a form of "go along to get along"? (in which case, is covering them up just as bad?) If having hairy legs makes me uncomfortable in work situations (but comfortable the rest of the time), is it feministly-empowering to keep them hairy anyway? Am I a bad feminist if I'm uncomfortable having visibly hairy legs in an interview? Am I a bad feminist for hiding them?

As I get older, these questions give me more trouble. To what extent can I do things in the societally-acceptable way (wear a bra, shave my legs) and still feel that I'm promoting the cause of feminism, living a feminist lifestyle? Is it necessary to be in-your-face about it in order to make a statement? Do I even WANT, or need, to make those statements? To what extent am I cutting off my nose to spite my face (letting my poor boobs go unsupported, jeopardizing my employment chances)? Isn't it more feminist to make the choice that makes me comfortable (wearing the bra because it feels better) even though this choice is, from the outside, indistinguishable from conformism?

I don't have any hard answers. I know that in the main, I feel like I live an extremely feminist lifestyle. And sometimes I feel like, the older I get, the less important it is to "prove" my feminist "cred" in big, visible, inconveniencing ways. At the same time, even though my new bras are both more comfortable and more supportive than any bra I've ever worn, I still find that the first thing I want to do upon coming home at the end of a day out is peel that sucker off and let the girls swing free. So I don't know. Hopefully, soon I'll get a new job and will be wearing the new bras all day every day, and will continue to whip them off as soon as I get home. But on the weekends, when I go out, what will I be doing? It remains to be seen.

Ahh, to be 22 again, when everything was clear-cut and nuance was irrelevant. heh.

Comments

[opadit.livejournal.com]

My answer (not that you're asking for one) to the leg-shaving thing is that it's absolutely not feminist for there to be a rule one way or the other. Specifically, I think it's not feminist to accuse a woman of not being "feminist enough" because she shaves.

For most job interviews, a woman interviewee is going to be judged negatively in some way if she wears clothes that show her legs and her legs aren't shaved. At best, it could cause the hiring person to get distracted. Do you want them talking about your qualifications or your grooming habits, you know? At worst, you're passed over for the job because you don't shave. Which is legally problematic, but you know it happens and it's really hard to prove. So there can be very practical reasons for shaving (or investing in pantsuits!). I have a hard time swallowing the implied conclusion that a "true" feminist would risk not getting a job for the sake of keeping her leg hair integrity.

Am I a bad feminist if I'm uncomfortable having visibly hairy legs in an interview? Am I a bad feminist for hiding them?

I don't think so. It means you're socially aware of the cultural norms around you, and you're sensitive to your peers and aware of the larger implications of your personal decisions.

I'll conclude by adding that if you don't give a flying fuck what potential romantic partners think about your shaving, why would you care what feminists think, either? (A "true feminist" would respect your choices, anyway.)

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Excellent points, thanks.

[skreeky]

I'd put it more simply by asking myself if a man is "allowed" to show his leg hair in an interview.

I think not.

Pants.

[wyldreamer.livejournal.com]

I hate wearing a bra so much. I almost never do these days. I've been home with my daughter for nearly 6 years and I was unemployed for most of my pregnancy too. Gradually I've given them up except for rare occasions.

I hate that it's seen as unacceptable, I hate that my breast are viewed as less attractive in their natural state by most of society because they aren't strapped up in a bra...it's stupid.

I'm 38 and I'm large, about a DD, but I get no discomfort from not wearing a bra, on the other end I get a lot of discomfort from wearing one and the correct fitting thing isn't the issue. I don't like/can't stand anything remotely tight around my torso area. It drives me crazy, makes me feel mildly claustrophobic and very uncomfortable.

This is also true for my waist and I am not really comfortable in jeans unless their loose enough to pull them down without unbuttoning them. It's been this way for a while but has increased as I've gotten older. And now that I don't work outside the home and don't feel the need to wear a bra I'm used to it and trying to go back to wearing one is agony.

[downwardlashes.livejournal.com]

I hate having to wonder if my appearance is being taken as some sort of statement. I really wonder what in the world people think I am trying to say. I've got hairy legs and underarms, a bald head, bushy unkempt eyebrows, and it's all because I really do not care. But, especially now that I'm bald, I bet people think I am making some daring statement and think it reflects my personality somehow. I wish I could just wear whatever and have no one think a thing of it.

[brina-is-sassy.livejournal.com]

Are you really bald now? Cool! My mom shaved her head a few years ago and I honestly believe when it was bald to about 3 inches long, she looked the best she's ever looked!

What were your reasons? She just got too hot and did it, hehe!

[downwardlashes.livejournal.com]

The psoriasis on my scalp has gotten SO bad, and I've been either pregnant or nursing for years so I can't use any of the medication for it. I was going to wait until Zinnia weaned, but damn, I was covered in huge dandruff all the time, scratching at my head all the time, it was embarrassing. The internets say that baring the skin to the sun, and using aloe three times a day will help. I'm also putting lanolin on it. So far it's doing pretty good!

[brina-is-sassy.livejournal.com]

I'm glad it's doing well so far! I come from a family with tons of skin problems so I know too well how irritating that kind of thing can be. The sun really does work wonders!

Can I friend you? I'm pretty boring (well, I forget to update for months at a time) but I always read my flist and try to reply.

[downwardlashes.livejournal.com]

Sure! I'd love to. :)

[brina-is-sassy.livejournal.com]

Also, I agree! I'm sure I'm often guilty of seeing something and judging it, but I try my best to remember it's none of my business how other people dress/groom and the older I get, the more I realize that my favorite people are the ones that most people would judge harshly if all they did was look at them. My friends are very eccentric, but they're also the coolest people I know.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

The thing is, whatever people think about how you look, it only matters to the extent that it bothers you. I would love to aspire to the ideal where I truly just don't care what people are thinking when they see me...but I do care, like it or not.

[downwardlashes.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I really would just love to not be noticed. I don't care what random strangers think of me, but I would love for them to not even notice me. But I do care what some people think of me, like the other moms and the people I used to work with at the library. I find that I get much more self-conscious around them, which kinda sucks.

[brina-is-sassy.livejournal.com]

I love this post, I've been thinking about these things myself recently.

Ever since I've had boobs, I've been much, much, much more comfortable wearing a bra. I'm not a fan of my boobs in general and I like them to be as close as possible?! I dunno if that makes any sense. It's almost the effect swaddling has on a baby. I feel much more exposed/uncomfortable without a bra. I even wear them when I'm sleeping most of the time. My mom rarely, if ever, wears a bra and she has huge boobs. She's constantly commenting on how people probably stare at her in the store and honestly, maybe I'm the freak here, but I've never paid attention to what someones boobs are or aren't doing. I'm too busy doing my own thing.

Same goes for the shaving. The only time I've really noticed someones legs are really hairy or armpits is if they put them right in my face, hahaha. Like if someone reaches past me with a full armpit fro, I'm going to have a "whoa" moment whether they're male or female.

I personally go 3-4 weeks between shaving, but at that point I can no longer wear pants because I hate the rubbing feeling! To each her own I suppose :D!

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

I should have talked about underarms too, maybe. I do shave my pits, because I'm more comfortable that way. But I certainly don't shave them nearly as often as society probably thinks I should. ;)

I like my boobs. They're not as good-looking as they were seven years ago, but I think they're still fairly nice to look at (not that anyone ever looks at them ;) ) and I'm proud of what they have accomplished. So in that sense I theoretically prefer them to be in their natural state. But then there is the comfort factor, which, like I said, has become a bigger deal for me lately than it used to be.

As far as noticing other people's boobs, well, sometimes I do, if they're particularly nice-looking ones ;) but I never find myself thinking "Wow, she's not wearing a bra and she really should be."

[orbitalmechanic.livejournal.com]

I do think that there can be more or less feminist choices. I believe strongly enough in cultural indoctrination that I think people do often make non-feminist or anti-feminist choices "because it feels right." But, you know, it can still feel right, and you can still decide to do it.

Especially with the job thing. A person needs a job. A person compromises a lot of things to get a job.

More questions

[jorend.livejournal.com]

These are interesting questions. I'm interested in your answers as well, and in fact let me pile on with more questions.

Can you know what feels good to you and what doesn't? It seems like you could fret all day about whether you truly enjoy the things you do. I see no way out except to try to be comfortable in your body and trust that your basic physical sensations are authentic.

Can you know your own mind? Is it possible to know why you do the things you do? If not, then does the "why" matter?

Some societal expectations seem morally positive to me (do not yell at people); others seem neutral (do not put your elbows on the dinner table). Is there any harm in going along with such expectations? What if they are puzzling or inconvenient?

Now society expects anyone going out in public, except in a Walmart, to put a little more care into their appearance than perhaps you or I habitually do at home. To some degree this is true regardless of sex. Is that expectation morally wrong?

Similarly, at least partly regardless of sex, all interviewees for office jobs are expected to try and make themselves look good. (I always shave for interviews.) To the degree that this applies to everyone, is that expectation wrong?

To what degree are society's expectations in this regard sexist? How insidious are they?

The last question seems to me the most important.

Re: More questions

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Interesting points, as always.

I agree that there are certain standards of appearance for interviews that are non-gender-specific, e.g. being clean, combing your hair, not having food between your teeth, and so on. No, I don't think that expectation is wrong. But as I said in another comment, I also think that the expectation to wear a bra is in a separate category, partly because it IS gender-specific, and also because of how weird our society is about breasts in particular. I mean, no one in an interview notices or cares or passes judgment on whether you're wearing boxers or briefs. A bra is an undergarment, by which measure it ought to be no one's business; but its presence or absence (on a woman of particular size) is evident, which puts it in a sort of unique position. so to speak.

The degree to which having breasts is problematic, for a person in a professional field, cannot be overstated.

As for "can you know what feels good to you?" well, yes and no. I can know what feels the most right on any given day. ;) But I do tend to get bogged down in deconstructing that feeling, second-guessing myself, trying to understand it - instead of just going with it, like the feminist viewpoint would have me do. ;)

Is there harm in going along with societal expectations for behavior? -I would say, there is harm in going along with expectations without thought. "We're doing it this way because this is the way it has always been done" is one of the biggest dangers to society. We can keep our elbows off the table even though we think it's a silly outdated rule...as long as we go through the thought process.

But societal expectations that involve implicit moral judgment are a different story: like with the bra thing. There's an implication that it "goes without saying" that a woman "must" wear a bra when she goes out in public. I disagree really strongly with that. And I think this is a case where more people need to be questioning. Because it's not really just about an undergarment, but about standards of appearance for women, and by implication, standards of behavior for women.

Re: More questions

[jorend.livejournal.com]

...which puts it in a sort of unique position. so to speak.

Tee hee! :)

Sorry this is so long, but it's been an hour and I really need to get back to work...

But societal expectations that involve implicit moral judgment are a different story: like with the bra thing. There's an implication that it "goes without saying" that a woman "must" wear a bra when she goes out in public. I disagree really strongly with that. And I think this is a case where more people need to be questioning. Because it's not really just about an undergarment, but about standards of appearance for women, and by implication, standards of behavior for women.

This is really well said. It clarifies a lot, and I think there are ethical consequences.

Some posts here have been saying that feminism means doing what you want to do, or words to that effect. I think that's incomplete, at best, and I blame the word feminism for completely screwing up this conversation. Of course feminism has moral consequences. Nobody would say ‘morality means doing what you want to’. Maybe that substitution is a bit of a stretch; but try ‘activism’ or ‘promoting social change’ or any other word there that people aren't quite so determined to interpret as meaning whatever the hell they want it to mean.</rant>

You have an obligation to yourself, sure. But you also have an obligation to the rest of society. At a minimum you are obliged not to tolerate sexism (or any other kind of injustice) when you come across it. And, you have a perhaps lesser obligation to ‘be the change you want to see’. Right?

So just to get everything on the table:

• you can change the world a little maybe, at the margin
• you need a job, and on average you think interviewers will definitely have a somewhat lesser opinion of you if you don't wear a bra, conscious or unconscious
• you want to feel comfortable, interpersonally, in your interview and your new job, and not wearing a bra creates a relatively small but enormously socially frought issue, just on a day-to-day personal level
• wearing a bra feels good, maybe, well a little, although, you never wear one around the house

Hmm, so that last point. So far you've said that your new bras are comfortable and that taking them off is a real relief too. It also sounds like you would never wear one without some kind of external reason. If there's some contradiction here, I'm not too worried about it; physical pleasure is not to be reasoned with. :) Frankly it sounds like a wash, I doubt there's anything sinister there, and I wouldn't bother deconstructing it.

I really hesitate to come to this conclusion, because I didn't start out in this direction and I don't want to say anything that might reduce your chances of getting a job :) but it looks like what it comes down to is, do you think you and other people like you can help change the world in this regard specifically by not wearing a bra to work/interviews; and if so, is that as important as getting along?

I place no small weight on getting along, either. I can see how it's a very difficult question.

Again I hesitate to add the following statements, but it has to be said: In your case I believe getting a job is totally compatible with being yourself. I actually have a lot of faith in people around where you live not to let this kind of thing get in the way of hiring the right person. And I think any place where people are making hiring decisions on the basis of underwear might not be the place you want to be.

[anotherjen.livejournal.com]

I don't have anything to say except "good post!"

[retch.livejournal.com]

I think the real feminist response is that it is your body, your breasts, your leg hair, your interviews, etc.

If you'd rather shave for an interview, regardless of why, go ahead and do so, your choice. If you'd rather not, don't! If you feel like wandering around without a bra on, fine, but if it feels more comfortable to have them supported, go ahead and wear the bra, you aren't betraying anybody by making your own choices about your own body. I don't think it is worth worrying about the statement, except in the specific cases where you ARE doing those things EXPLICITLY to make a statement.

[retch.livejournal.com]

oh, on the specifics of shaving for a job, to some extent that seems more like a hygiene question than a sexism question. I shave my face before interviews, I don't want to go in looking scruffy, even though many work days I will be in with 1-2 days of stubble. Sometimes for interviews I dress up slightly (all the way up to wearing corduroy pants that aren't hugely baggy and a button up shirt from the set that I like), though plenty of times I just show up in my usual tshirt and raver pants.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

heh, yeah well it does also have a lot to do with the type of places where one is interviewing. I wouldn't wear a t-shirt to a job interview, even at a really casual small software company...though I'd certainly wind up wearing t-shirts to work, if/when I got that job.

But I also think that shaving your face (and combing hair, brushing teeth, etc.) are in a different category from wearing a bra vs. no bra. It's about the particular way in which our society is weird about boobs.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Thanks :) I actually do know that I'm allowed to make these choices for myself. ;) It's just that untangling what I really want is complicated.

[lapenn.livejournal.com]

oh, fuck. I just lost a REALLY long comment. And I had a feeling it would happen.

short one: feminism means making the choice that works for you and not making a choice that someone says that you, as a female, "should" make. So do what works for you.

Is it better to have unshaved legs and be unemployed or shave occasionally and have a job? Up to you! Better to wear a bra, be comfy, and not be so 70s feminist, or is it better to stay true to your roots? Up to you!

Make the choice that works for you. I certainly do. I wear a bra because it's more comfortable with me (and actually cues me to be a little more serious -- on lazy Saturdays when I want to get stuff done, putting on the bra means srs bzness). I shave every once in awhile and am lucky to have a boyfriend who's okay with that. When I do shave, it's a fun treat for both of us . . . but it's not required. If he were a little more picky, I might shave more often for him -- but I like him as he is, and if his personality were different and asked that, I might not like him so much (I did once break up with a guy who always complained if I didn't shave, but it was a larger personality issue). I've got something that works and fits the choices I've seen fit to make in my life.

I made these choices because they work for me. Make the choices that work for you.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

like I said up above - I do know that feminism gives me the right to make these decisions for myself. ;) My point in the post is more that it's not so easy figuring out which decision I want to make. And, even when I do decide (at least for any given day), I still find myself pondering what my motivations were for that decision and what they say about me, and so forth.

[lapenn.livejournal.com]

I'd say don't overthink it -- make the decision and just go for it. If you decide later that you didn't like that decision or had the wrong reasons, you can always change your mind.

[jorend.livejournal.com]

I wear a bra because it's more comfortable with me (and actually cues me to be a little more serious -- on lazy Saturdays when I want to get stuff done, putting on the bra means srs bzness).

See, I kinda wondered if this is true, though I would never have had the gall to ask anyone. I wonder if men wearing briefs get more work done. There's probably a whole field of sociology about this.

It would actually sort of justify, in a twisted way, workplaces that expect female employees to wear bras. Probably at Japanese factories they check all the men for unauthorized boxers at the start of each shift. No wonder Detroit is losing.

[lapenn.livejournal.com]

teehee :-) I don't know about anyone else, but I definitely am more active in a bra. Same for dressing up -- I think I do better work when wearing slightly nicer clothes. In my jammies, I just don't feel as motivated to do much.

Dude, you're raising 2 kids all by your bad self without a man in sight.

[idairsauthor.livejournal.com]

Of course you're living as a feminist. Doesn't matter whether your legs are furry or not, and if the bra makes you feel better then wear it without fear.